push rod vs. modular

[brando 95gt]

hey guys. i have a bit of a conundrum, maybe you guys can help me figure it out. i have always been a 5.0 mustang guy for as long as i can remember. i have always owned and built pushrod engines. i'm beginning to wonder if i'm missing out on something by not ever owing a modular mustang. i have driven a few, but it was so long ago, i can't remember much about it. for you guys that have had both, what do you think? am i missing out? is the driving experience different? the complexity of the modular engine does not scare me, so that is not a problem.

i love my 95 gt, but i feel like i could be having more fun, especially for a daily driver.

what do you guys think?

[Joey5.4]

i have been down both roads and its hard to say which I prefer, it all depends on how you look at it. for a true street car a 4v 4.6 slightly modded is a beast, especially if you add a small shot of nitrous or a little boost. But for a all out race car, a pushrod would be my choice, cheaper to build and you can get so much more cubic inches out of them.

[stumbaugh]

simply put...Modular FTW.

[Str33tr]

simply put...Modular FTW.

whatever dood... when I decided to go SN95 I had to make this choice, and my research (>2yrs ago) showed that making 350-450hp was cheaper on the pushrod motors. Then you throw in the MASSIVE aftermarket support for 5.0/5.8 motors +easier to work on +less moving parts= less chance for breakage...
pushrods 4ever, friends.

[hammerhead2]

I have had both and I really liked both as well. If you are looking to make some serious HP then a good ole build Windsor motor wins hands down. If you are looking for something more in the 500hp or less range especially with a power adder then you could really go either way. Both motors have theirs ups and downs. If you start with a 4V motor you will already be making the power of a mild HCI 302 motor. Add a small blower or turbo or some nitrous with boltons and you will have a great street car that will win more races than it will lose. If it is between a 2V and a 302 then I would be really side with the 302 motor. They just have more potential to unlock and the aftermarket support for them is unmatched. Although really you can pretty much go as fast on any of them as long as you have the pocket book to do it.

[stumbaugh]

Actually Modulars are WAY more dependable than a pushrod motor. The after market is just now really starting to get ahold of these motors. As for Modular vs 302, it's Modular hands down on that one. Show me a 302 car in full weight, all accessories (power streering, A/C), bone stock suspension, and only has a hand help programmer, H pipe, magnaflows, and gears that runs 10's on street tires...cause my modular did.

As for Modular's vs Windsors...it's windsor's all the way. a 408 is a hard motor to beat.

One thing that everybody is forgetting about the modulars is Trickflows new cylinder heads for the 2v. I dont know if everyone is aware of this, but the TF heads are outflowing any 4v head on the market right now. A 4.6 with TF heads, cams, intake, and full exhaust with DOMINATE a 302 with the same mods, I promise.

Here is a little something that I think is pretty interesting for this arguement. An aftermarket block was just now finally produced around 6 month's ago. Everyone who has been setting records with Modular motor's have been doing that on stock blocks (they have extensive machine work, but still are stock casting blocks). There has been a 4.6 2v in the 8's. Find me a stock block 302 in the 8's.

[Joey5.4]

It all comes down to personal preference, yea a 4.6 block is way stronger that a 302, especially the later roller 5.0 blocks, but the 302 is also 50 year old technology, along with the 351. I am not bias to either one of the motors but it is hard to compare them. the 5.0 is really the reason any of us are mustang enthusist because it changed hot rodding for ever when the 86 fuel injected 5.0 hit the streets and people got to turning wrenches on them. the 5.0 was a FEARED car in the mid to late 80's, and even afterwards. I remember my parents buying a new 88 GT when I was a child(which is still my dads daily driver) would make a fool out of big blocks with 4barrels,cam,headers, all the basic stuff that made a bad street car in the 80's, and that stock 5.0 when it had 150,000+ would still run almost a second faster than my moms 96 4.6gt brand new... the 4.6 will never have the respect of the 5.0 because the 5.0 is what brought back American muscle.
I personally like the modular motors, and would rather be putting one in my car because I like the design and just the new technology, but 4.6 and 5.4's are cubic inch limited, and cubic inches is the best was to make horsepower other than a power adder, but I want a bad car on all motor, and there is no way I could make a mod motor make the hp on motor of the 434 I am building, crap it would be hard even with a power adder.

[adam2kgt]

Jake, you do realize that stock TFS 4.6 Twisted Wedge heads flow 241cfm at .550 lift, where bone stock '03 Cobra heads flow 233cfm at .500 lift. Fox Lake offers ported 4 valve heads that hit 324cfm at .550 lift, but ported Trick Flows top at 261cfm at .600 lift.

Now, I'm all for both motors. I love all things cumbustion. I will say this. The Modular engine is more inherently efficient than Windsor based engines (this includes both 302 and 351 based engines) Basically, Modulars do more with less. No stock 302 or 351 engine has ever made 260, 305, 315, 385, or 412 horsepower naturally aspirated. However, had Ford continued to pursue technological advances with their Windsor based engines like Chevy did with the LS and Dodge did with the Hemi, it's hard to say what kind of horsepower would have been possible.

What it boils down to is what you want the car to be. Do you want a cut and paste, tried and true, proven combination? Do you want to blaze somewhat new paths, to visit territory that the vast majority of people haven't ventured onto? Do you want an engine that has 40+ years of knowledge and history? Do you want the latest, newest technology? It's all up to you, either are equally good choices, either will be equally reliable (I've personally witnessed a 9000rpm 360ci Ford Windsor based motor that made 800+ hp naturally aspirated and lasted 2 seasons of circle track racing with nothing more than a few oil changes), and either will be equally powerful if you spend your money wisely and pay attention to your end goal.

[stumbaugh]

I wasnt even aware anyone was offering a ported 4v head. I was just going off stock 4v vs a TF head. That's good people are offering ported 4v heads tho. Learn something new every day.

Modular FTW : D

[Blackout_03]

Modular...how many stock block never had the valve covers off 800+ hp pushrod cars are there?......NONE........now how many turbo 03-04 cobras are there...a crap ton! Hell i think there are a few in the 1000hp range...never had the valve covers off

[stumbaugh]

Modular...how many stock block never had the valve covers off 800+ hp pushrod cars are there?......NONE........now how many turbo 03-04 cobras are there...a crap ton! Hell i think there are a few in the 1000hp range...never had the valve covers off

There are a few around stangnet and other sites that have the Hellion Twin Turbo kit, that are putting out around 1050rwhp without lifting a valve cover.

[Joey5.4]

there is no way to prove which is superior. yea 03-04 cobra motor are some of if not the baddest production motors ever built, but how many naturally aspirated modular motors make 1000hp? for street sleeper yes modular is the way to go, but if you want to build a motor to make lots of horsepower and big torque, the a windsor is the way to go. The aftermarket is another down fall for the modular motors, edlebrock makes a 2v 4.6 intake, sullivan make 4v 5.4, and 4.6 intake and hps make a intake for 2v 4.6 and 5.4(good luck getting one of these...) and then headers if you want to put a 5.4 in something that it didnt come in, gotta spend over $1000, same for a 4.6, you can get headers all day long for a pushrod motor to put in anything you can think of for $500 or less. for a fast street car modular, but if you really want to go fast, dont care about much street driving, and not go broke, windsor...

[hammerhead2]

I wasnt even aware anyone was offering a ported 4v head. I was just going off stock 4v vs a TF head. That's good people are offering ported 4v heads tho. Learn something new every day.

Modular FTW : D

Yeah there are few CNC 4V heads available out there now days and a few that are getting as much as 320cfm. You also have options like the Ford GT head and the Cobra R head both of which flow in the 270cfm+ range I have seen some 3V CNC heads gettng in the 270-290cfm range as well. I really like the mod motors and in a stock motor with bolt on's performace arena they are the better bet, but the 2V test I have seen even with the Trick Flow heads are doing good to reach 450HP in street trim. I have seen multiple 302 based motors eclipse those numbers and that is about average for a farily well built 347/331 motor. Of course if I was going to build a 302 base engine I would just start with a Dart Block or equivlent as the the stock 302 block tends to be a bit limited so that expense should be considered. You can really go either way and both motors have there ups and downs. The reason I would go with a 302/windsor setup is simply they have more total potential and will cost less to build in the long run for a race motor but I do currently own a mod motor so there you go. It just kind of depends on what you prefer and what you want to do with them. I will say in almost every race class you get a weight break for running a mod motor over a 302/Windsor setup though.

[stumbaugh]

Yeah there are few CNC 4V heads available out there now days and a few that are getting as much as 320cfm. You also have options like the Ford GT head and the Cobra R head both of which flow in the 270cfm+ range I have seen some 3V CNC heads gettng in the 270-290cfm range as well. I really like the mod motors and in a stock motor with bolt on's performace arena they are the better bet, but the 2V test I have seen even with the Trick Flow heads are doing good to reach 450HP in street trim. I have seen multiple 302 based motors eclipse those numbers and that is about average for a farily well built 347/331 motor. Of course if I was going to build a 302 base engine I would just start with a Dart Block or equivlent as the the stock 302 block tends to be a bit limited so that expense should be considered. You can really go either way and both motors have there ups and downs. The reason I would go with a 302/windsor setup is simply they have more total potential and will cost less to build in the long run for a race motor but I do currently own a mod motor so there you go. It just kind of depends on what you prefer and what you want to do with them. I will say in almost every race class you get a weight break for running a mod motor over a 302/Windsor setup though.

I hope you are not talking about a 2v doing good to reach 450hp with forced induction. Because if so, you have been ill Informed. On 3 Performance's 67mm turbo kit is putting down 443.9rwhp and 496rwtq on a completely stock 2v minus the turbo kit, and weld in flowmasters. And that was at 10psi. With the trickflow heads, turbo cams, and a good intake and TB, it would be WELL over 500rwhp. The stock 2v motor would be completely demolished if you pushed it to that point tho.

If you dont believe me, get on www.theturboforums.com and you can read all the reviews for the kit yourselves.

[hammerhead2]

LOL no man I am speaking in terms of NA motors only. When cross comparing motors it seems only natural to talk about what the motor itself is capable of without power adders. Sorry if I confused you by not being more clear. I am a member of turbo forums also and am well aware what those things can do on a 2 valve, or any other motor for that matter.

[stumbaugh]

Oh ok. Yeah 450rwhp is around the highest I have saw a stock short blocked 4.6 NA. As for the 5.1 stroker kits. I have heard about some pretty wicked NA combo's with them when they are strictly built for NA purposes.

I am right there with you on comparing stuff NA when it comes to these kind of questions.

Me personally, I will always have a Modular for a street car. They are very reliable and can make very very good numbers with boost and still get great fuel mileage. A friend of mine had a 01 Bullitt with a Vortec T trim with a stock bore 4.6 with upgraded rods and piston's for boost, other than that it was stock. It put down 470rwhp and that car was drove from Texas to russellville and daily drove for a while with no issues at all and got around 17mpg in town. His first pass was a 9.2 at Centerville. He only got to run it that one time because it was so crowded. He never ran it again because it was a DD and didn't want to break anything. But that car had easy 8's in it with some seat time. 8 Second daily driver is not bad folks...

[melo yelo]

Actually Modulars are WAY more dependable than a pushrod motor. The after market is just now really starting to get ahold of these motors. As for Modular vs 302, it's Modular hands down on that one. Show me a 302 car in full weight, all accessories (power streering, A/C), bone stock suspension, and only has a hand help programmer, H pipe, magnaflows, and gears that runs 10's on street tires...cause my modular did.

As for Modular's vs Windsors...it's windsor's all the way. a 408 is a hard motor to beat.

One thing that everybody is forgetting about the modulars is Trickflows new cylinder heads for the 2v. I dont know if everyone is aware of this, but the TF heads are outflowing any 4v head on the market right now. A 4.6 with TF heads, cams, intake, and full exhaust with DOMINATE a 302 with the same mods, I promise.

Here is a little something that I think is pretty interesting for this arguement. An aftermarket block was just now finally produced around 6 month's ago. Everyone who has been setting records with Modular motor's have been doing that on stock blocks (they have extensive machine work, but still are stock casting blocks). There has been a 4.6 2v in the 8's. Find me a stock block 302 in the 8's.

10's with bolt ons and no power adder what track? Because, that sure doesn't sound like a bolt on 4.6 1/4 mile time.

[ArkansasMystic]

Probably Centerville, which is a 1000ft track.

[scootro]

i love this topic! you can tell in this thread on who drives a 4.6. haha (no offense!)

both are great motors i'm just not going to spend the money on the expensive 4.6 horsepower. there is a reason the foxbody ruled the streets and the drag strip in its hay day and if you go to a drag strip nowadays you'll still see 'em tearing it up! you have to admit that the 4.6 2v cannot gain potential hp without boost, supercharged, or nos!

if you only had $5,000 dollars to mod a 5.0 or a 4.6 which one do you think will be faster down the drag strip?

[scootro]

Oh ok. Yeah 450rwhp is around the highest I have saw a stock short blocked 4.6 NA. As for the 5.1 stroker kits. I have heard about some pretty wicked NA combo's with them when they are strictly built for NA purposes.

I am right there with you on comparing stuff NA when it comes to these kind of questions.

Me personally, I will always have a Modular for a street car. They are very reliable and can make very very good numbers with boost and still get great fuel mileage. A friend of mine had a 01 Bullitt with a Vortec T trim with a stock bore 4.6 with upgraded rods and piston's for boost, other than that it was stock. It put down 470rwhp and that car was drove from Texas to russellville and daily drove for a while with no issues at all and got around 17mpg in town. His first pass was a 9.2 at Centerville. He only got to run it that one time because it was so crowded. He never ran it again because it was a DD and didn't want to break anything. But that car had easy 8's in it with some seat time. 8 Second daily driver is not bad folks...

the main difference to me is i don't have hire a specialized mechanic to fix my stuff when it all goes bad i can do it all in a parking lot if need be! also no car payments, higher insurance, and just a more expensive mustang all around.

its all about the money to me and the 5.0 gets my vote

[stumbaugh]

Haha ya I love this thread also, all you silly pushrod guys...haha j/k. My main thing with a modular is the reliability of them. You just have to keep one thing in mind when you are doing this discusion; modulars are really just now becoming hot in the aftermarket world. Look how long it took for an aftermarket head to be produced. In 5 years we can have this discusion again and I bet a few of you die hard pushrod fans will be switching to the Modular side.

I have came up with the ONLY thing a modular has on a Windsor (351 based motor). The late 60s/ early 70s Windsor blocks are the strongest production pushrod blocks ford made. With a little machine work, they can handle around 800ish hp. A Teksid aluminum block out of a 96-98 cobra have been known for a little over 2000hp. Yes, 2000. Look at MMR's black 07 gt with twin 88mm turbo's that's pushing over 2000rwhp. It uses a production Teksid block. Also the Cobra crankshafts (03/04) can handle over 1200hp.

Now for your race with $5,000 to spend. Give me a Terminator, the 302 would lose bad.

[melo yelo]

This is really a apples to oranges comparison. Both set ups have their pros and cons.

[Str33tr]

Haha ya I love this thread also, all you silly pushrod guys...haha j/k.

Now for your race with $5,000 to spend. Give me a Terminator, the 302 would lose bad.
Picking the termi to compete w/ a 302 isn't really fair. BUT, I could find a way to make it a fair drag race. Termi vs. Fox notch -If I got the cash diff b/t the coupe and termi IN ADDITION TO the $5k to build the windsor.
Or if the windsor could be represented by one of the supercharged Saleen Coupes... then it could be a fair comparison.

[scootro]

Picking the termi to compete w/ a 302 isn't really fair. BUT, I could find a way to make it a fair drag race. Termi vs. Fox notch -If I got the cash diff b/t the coupe and termi IN ADDITION TO the $5k to build the windsor.
Or if the windsor could be represented by one of the supercharged Saleen Coupes... then it could be a fair comparison.

i agree because you gotta have a supercharged terminator to compete with a $5,000 dollar foxbody! haha..

Really what it all comes down to with mustang owners is "who has the newest air jordan's!" You know what i'm talking about!

[stumbaugh]

and you 302 guys have to turn your motors into 331/347 strokers to outrun 4.6's....

[Ryan]

i have a 302 and it outruns 4.6s

i will say that stock for stock, modulars win. stock 302s make 225hp and 300tq from factory where as 4v 4.6s make 300hp factory. it takes heads and cam for a 302 to make the power a 4.6 does. however, 302s are some torquey motors and can make a good run for someones money when built right.

i have contemplated on this same quesiton as the OP. do i sell the fox and finance a modular car, or stay pushrod. i chose to stay pushrod (building a 351 right now ) for the fact its expensive to mod a modular car and so cheap for pushrod.

[Str33tr]

Even drift nuts get it...
http://www.stanceworks.com/?p=8633
"The Ford 302 spinning the tires has all of the ups and none of the downs of most swaps. He can get parts at any parts store in america, and can fix it in the blink of an eye. Its also one seriously reliable powerhouse, with 3 years of drifting on the same engine so far, and no signs of weakening."

[Blackout_03]

I take 5k and my mach and put it against anybody in the pushrod car and 5k anyday!

[stumbaugh]

I take 5k and my mach and put it against anybody in the pushrod car and 5k anyday!

Agreed!

Get on Stangnet and do some research. This topic has been a brutal one on there. Two guys did a test between a 99+ gt and a 93 gt. Mod for Mod without stroking the motor. They said the Modular won in every category. The modular would walk away from a roll, would run down the 302 by the 330ft mark at the track, got better fuel mileage and ran smoother.

I will go ahead and say I have not seen this thread myself. I am good friends with a moderator on that site and I was telling him about our discussion and he was the one telling me about this test. He is currently trying to find me a link to the topic. As soon as he does, I will post up.

He told me the mod's for the cars tho, they are the following:
Both Stage 2 cam's
Both Stock ported heads
Both Long tube headers
Both X Pipe's
Both Magnaflow cat back
Both 3.73's
pushrod-70mm TB, Modular-75mm TB
Both 24lbs injectors and matching mass air

Like I said, I havent saw the thread myself. I am just going off of a friends word. Once he sends me the link, I will post up.

[Str33tr]

Agreed!
Both Stage 2 cam's
Both Stock ported heads
Both Long tube headers
Both X Pipe's
Both Magnaflow cat back
Both 3.73's
pushrod-70mm TB, Modular-75mm TB
Both 24lbs injectors and matching mass air

And the price for these mods on each car?
And the difference in base price b/t the two cars?
And how long did the two motors last?
-how expensive was it to fix the cars when the little stuff broke?
-how much when big stuff broke?

These are the key differences I see and why I drive a pushrod stang.

[Blackout_03]

And the price for these mods on each car?
And the difference in base price b/t the two cars?
And how long did the two motors last?
-how expensive was it to fix the cars when the little stuff broke?
-how much when big stuff broke?

These are the key differences I see and why I drive a pushrod stang.


And thats why u will drive a slower car than a moidular car with the same mods. U gotta pay to go fast! You either pay to drive a new faster car from the start. Or you pay in mods to keep up with technology!!

[scootro]

well anyway I love my 93' cobra an 94' lightning and wouldn't trade 'em for a mod motor and especially a 2v 4.6.

I’ve owned my fair share of stangs including a

96' mystic cobra (i bought it new and it was a money pit)
99' cobra (i bought it for cheap but was to expensive to gain good hp)
02' gt (reliable but slow)

I just wasn't that impressed with 'em! Every 2v 4.6 motor that I’ve came across has that motor ticking sound.

[Blackout_03]

That ticking is more than likley the injectors. i would love a 93 Bra or a Gen1 L....both are nice cars and were the pinnical in there day...The Gen2 L is superior is every way and we all know how nasty the 03 cobras are.

I to have had my share of pushrod and modular..

96 GT
93 LX 5.0
90 LX 5.0
03 Lightning
95 GT Vert
03 Mach1

My L and Mach are by far the best bang for the buck!

[Str33tr]

And thats why u will drive a slower car than a moidular car with the same mods. U gotta pay to go fast! You either pay to drive a new faster car from the start. Or you pay in mods to keep up with technology!!

pro'lly true. I is broke. Thats why I went for the tried/true 5.0. Motor is dead reliable, parts are cheap and she's easy to work on.

[scootro]

That ticking is more than likley the injectors. i would love a 93 Bra or a Gen1 L....both are nice cars and were the pinnical in there day...The Gen2 L is superior is every way and we all know how nasty the 03 cobras are.

I to have had my share of pushrod and modular..

96 GT
93 LX 5.0
90 LX 5.0
03 Lightning
95 GT Vert
03 Mach1

My L and Mach are by far the best bang for the buck!but the gen 1 lightning has way better handling


i guess i'm not gonna win any arguments in this thread! haha oh well i do like to argue..

[Blackout_03]

yeah .85g to .88g....not enough for the average fan..but it was still better!!

[scootro]

yeah .85g to .88g....not enough for the average fan..but it was still better!!

i won.. WOOT!!!

[Jimmy]

Granted both motors and set ups are good in each car. But I myself like stumbaugh and torched will stick with the 4.6. I have very few mods done to my car and have not been beaten by a 5.0 with equal amout of mods or even a few more. The 4.6 is superior mod for mod. And I can just about guarantee everything done to my car did not cost much more to do to my car then it would to a 5.0 and they are not that hard to work on especially when some of your good friends are the mechanics at the Ford dealership

[my4stangs]

I have built both engine from a bare block the 4.6 DOHC was very expensive to rebuild in stock form and difficult compared to a push rod engine. I like the push rod engines my self. If you spend the same amount of money on each engine the pushrod engine will win. Go to the race track and see if there are any n/a mod's making 800+ horsepower. I have seen n/a 408's making 900 horsepower. But to each there own, I'm old school.

[halemach1]

ok here we go...

push rod is the best at all out power hands down......

mod is for alot of STREET friendly power...... but yes it cost alot more $$$$

bottom line is...... what you want from your car, do you want ; two days a month, 1320 ft. at a time..... if so YOU CAN NOT BEAT A BBF push rod. or
A 700 or 800 hp STREET power, that you can DD 50 miles a day and drives like its stock untill your foot gets in the way lol

the choice is yours.

[redsvt]

looks like this has already been beat to death but!

ive had alot of pushrod cars and they were easy to work on and pretty fast.

also had a 99 cobra. good street car. and got alot of looks.

hard decisions.