"raising stall?" and other newb questions

[Str33tr]

Didn't want to keep threadjacking the "what heads" thread, so here's a new one.
A small hand ful of tasteful mod's would bring your car alive. Your car would be pretty quick with about a 2800-3000 stall, a decent cam, and a good intake. You could find most of that stuff for pretty cheap on Corral, stangnet, ebay, ect ect. If you are stuck with trying to make that car look old school, atleast make it not be a stock 5 liter.
I'll start @ the end -yes, I'm stuck with trying to make the car look (and sound) old school.

I've sent a pm to Travis to talk a/b getting those iron Roush heads. If we're able to work something out then what do I need?

Talking to Chy this summer, he was suggesting a B cam, and now Jake's talking a/b raising my stall...
IF I get those heads, I may still be working w/ a/b $900 to get junk to go with them. What all do I need to get that won't kill my miserable MPG and make the car un-usable as a daily? What would the 2800stall do to mileage? And how un-fun is it going to be in rush hour traffic? Same questions for the b cam on my automatic car (with air conditioning that works beautifully in the summer months!).
I was thinking a/b a GT40 intake, but would I be better off getting CAI, 76mm mass air (wired to work w/ my stock -19lb?- injectors) and 75mm throttle body?
In a perfect world I'd get it all, but... dunno that $900 goes that far.
Oh, and let's not forget that I'll have to get the hardware/gaskets/stuff to mount heads and anything else -that's all gotta come outta this same kitty.
What I'd love to get are an Hpipe and glasspacks to really make it sound JUST like I want it, but I think I'll get some performance 1st.
Background:
For anyone who doesn't know/remember, the old girl has 4:11s (or 4.10s -I can NEVER remember which are mustang gears), shift kit on the automatic, Kenny Brown Sub-frame connectors & lower control arms. Almost forgot, dumped hi flow cat back.
So -aside from the drop spindles I intend to purchase @some point to fix the mess I've made of my front suspension geometry- I'm pretty well set for chassis/tranny/rearend. Now it's time to make some power to back up the look.
OH YEAH, she also has 90k miles on the ticker (pretty good for a 95, eh?), and is my daily transportation, running a/b 20miles a day rain/shine (in all of her 16mpg glory!).

[horspwr]

[QUOTE=Str33tr;22225] What would the 2800stall do to mileage? And how un-fun is it going to be in rush hour traffic? Same questions for the b cam on my automatic car (with air conditioning that works beautifully in the summer months!).


Surprisingly, the stall wont affect MPG or driveability that much. I have a B&M 3000 stall in mine and drive it everyday. What the stall converter does is it delays the RPM at which it locks up (ie, 2800). You want to select a stall that locks up in the RPM range where your engine is making the most power. If you're not gonna be doing any drag racing, a stall is useless.

[Str33tr]

Surprisingly, the stall wont affect MPG or driveability that much. I have a B&M 3000 stall in mine and drive it everyday. What the stall converter does is it delays the RPM at which it locks up (ie, 2800). You want to select a stall that locks up in the RPM range where your engine is making the most power. If you're not gonna be doing any drag racing, a stall is useless.

Well, that's got that settled. I seriously doubt I'll ever run my car down a drag strip.

[weeloGT]

^^^i agree. Before you buy anything figure out what you want from the car and buy parts to match
Most cams have a rpm range in which they work best, same with intakes. Don't get a cam that prefers low Rpms and an intake that likes them high, then get some crazy stall that meets in the middle.
I have seen decent results with folks that have ported the stock heads, ran a small cam and a standard performer intake. All of that can be done for the amount your looking to spend and add some power to the rear wheels. As far as a stall goes. If you do a lot of street driving and your cam is not all that crazy. A 2000-2500 would be prefect. Basically like it was said before, it just helps the car stay out of the bogging down range and gets it going where the power is made at (kinda of a easy way to say it). It's like holding the clutch on a 5sp and bringing the Rpms up before letting go. To much stall will hurt you just as much as a big cam or huge heads when the rest of the car isn't built around those parts.
I have personally seen plenty of mid 12 sec 1/4 mile times on ported e7s and bolt ons. That would be my suggestion to you with the amount your looking to spend. And also I have a set of stock heads you can have and let Mike port for you so that your car isn't down for a long period of time. It's up to you.

[Str33tr]

Before you buy anything figure out what you want from the car and buy parts to match
Yeah, I definitely know what I want and understand that's a huge part of making sure I get the best bang/buck.
I want an enjoyable DD. Good sounding, decent riding, 16+mpg, faster than an econo-box.
My fox had me spoiled. It got 20mpg and sounded great. It was pretty quick and the 5spd made it fun. This car -by comparison- has always been a dog (performance-wise), but it (the 95gt) is in much better shape and doesn't cost me near as much to mantain! Plus I think she's sexy.
Most cams have a rpm range in which they work best, same with intakes...
I love the feel of a top end charge, but don't want it to be a wimp coming away from the light, so a motor that makes steam 2500-6k RPM should be a/b perfect for me. I know I'm not after a 4500-7k cam (figures pulled out of my ***). just looked at the "power ranges" on Summitracing.com, the E makes pwr from 2500-5500 and the B makes pwr from 3k-6k. Seems like either of those would be good, but I guess the E might have less negative effect on my vacuum? Or is the difference b/t these cams so small that it wouldn't matter? If that's the case I'd probably lean torward the hotter cam. I have seen decent results with folks that have ported the stock heads, ran a small cam and a standard performer intake. As far as a stall goes, if you do a lot of street driving and your cam is not all that crazy a 2000-2500 would be prefect. Basically like it was said before, it just helps the car stay out of the bogging down range and gets it going where the power is made at (kinda of a easy way to say it). It's like holding the clutch on a 5sp and bringing the Rpms up before letting go. To much stall will hurt you just as much as a big cam or huge heads when the rest of the car isn't built around those parts.
So then, if I'm understanding your clutch metaphor, stepping up to a hotter cam and getting the stall that matches would make the car leave smoother and stronger? If my engine's not bogging won't that help my vacuum (asking b/c of the all-important a/c!) or have I taken the metaphor too far?
Also, what is the stock stall speed? Isn't it like 1500?
I have personally seen plenty of mid 12 sec 1/4 mile times on ported e7s and bolt ons. That would be my suggestion to you with the amount your looking to spend. And also I have a set of stock heads you can have and let Mike port for you so that your car isn't down for a long period of time. It's up to you.
Well -if I ever get off my duff and go fight w/ the DMV- I have another vehicle (the bronco) that I can drive while the stang is getting her make over, so that's not a BIG deal. I do appreciate the offer. For my simple goals, which is going to be better: ported stockers or the Iron Roushes? The price for those heads seem really reasonable to me, but if I can't afford the bits I'd need to go with them then it's not worth it. I want to pull her apart and do this 1 time! (My wife isn't going to stand for me pulling the car apart to make big changes every yr)

Sounds like intake + ported e7s + (b cam + 2500 stall) or (E cam + 2k stall) could be a good match that wouldn't destroy driveability and would make the car more fun than stock for the $$ I'm looking to spend.

[weeloGT]

I think you'll have better results from the b cam. As far as the lack of power over your fox, if I remember correctly the sn95s ecu has a different timing curve causing lack of power at the bottom end. I remember a write up years ago where they swapped out the ecu for that out of a 93 earlier fox and was able to cut se tenths off the quatermile time. The overall hp wasn't affected as much but where the power came in was a step up. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that was what I remember. I know for sure that was the case with the sn95 cobras vs. The 93 cobra. The roush heads are nice but with a stock bottom end they are a little on the big side. I really think a nice set of gt40s or ported stockers will be perfect for everyday street use and a better sound.

[brando 95gt]

Hey str33tr, i was in the same boat as you with my 95 gt auto. I have a cai, 3.73, headers, h pipe and a shift kit and it still felt like a dog. Gears helped a bunch, but i wanted more.

I finally decided to do a 5 speed swap. I completed the tuesday before christmas. Let me tell you, it made a HUGE difference in the feel of the car. It is now a lot more fun to drive.

Im like you. My car doesnt see a drag strip, it is simply a dd street car. Just something for you to think about.

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

The SN ecu is a big limiting factor for performance and needs a chip to correct it. Most people dothe A9l conversion. If your automatic with a low stall it would be beneficial to put the E cam in it as it always seems to work fo a auto which ford pretty much designed it for and will also work good with ported E7 heads. But, i have personally seen the SN ecu's freak out with performance cams! The E cam is a milder cam than the B, so you might do.a.search and read up on the issues with aftermarket cams and SN computers before you buy a.cam for it.Here is a list to think about. A stall wont make more power, but will make the car quicker because it basically allows you to get the rpms up before it engages.

Cobra intake
65-70mm throttle body
Gt40 heads or ported stockers
E cam
Up to 75mm throttle body

This is just my opinion and isnt meant to try to prove anyone wrong. Everyone has their own tried and true setups.

[weeloGT]

I'm glad you stepped in Mike, I thought the ecu was an issue. And the list you came up with is exactually what I would do. Other then the cam. Haha. But you know far more then I do. I just have always been a fan of the sound from a b cam is a basically stock motor.

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

I'm glad you stepped in Mike, I thought the ecu was an issue. And the list you came up with is exactually what I would do. Other then the cam. Haha. But you know far more then I do. I just have always been a fan of the sound from a b cam is a basically stock motor.

The B cam is deffinately an aggressive little guy and one of the SN cars i had issues with the ecu not liking the cam had a B cam in it. The E cam i think will be more cruising friendly and its also emissions legal so it doesnt make a big impact on mileage or send the SN ecu into a epileptic episode!

[Str33tr]

The SN ecu is a big limiting factor for performance and needs a chip to correct it. Most people do the A9l conversion.
I'd been looking at the MSD kit (6al, wires, plugs, coil and dizzy), does the 6al do the same thing as the a9l (newb question!)? OR, Is that too much money to spend on this for my goal?
How much of a headache is it to swap to A9l?

If your automatic with a low stall... for the record, I don't have the stall, I'm weighing it as an option.

... it would be beneficial to put the E cam in it as it always seems to work fo a auto which ford pretty much designed it for and will also work good with ported E7 heads. But, i have personally seen the SN ecu's freak out with performance cams! The E cam is a milder cam than the B, so you might do.a.search and read up on the issues with aftermarket cams and SN computers before you buy a.cam for it.Here is a list to think about. A stall wont make more power, but will make the car quicker because it basically allows you to get the rpms up before it engages.

Cobra intake
65-70mm throttle body
Gt40 heads or ported stockers
E cam
Up to 75mm throttle body

This is just my opinion and isnt meant to try to prove anyone wrong. Everyone has their own tried and true setups.

I'm w/ Scott, I'm really glad that you popped in Mike. I almost put your name in the title of the thread!

So, changing the t/b works okay w/o changing the mass air meter? For some reason I thought that doing 1 w/o the other didn't really give any gain...

[weeloGT]

Msd 6al is nothing like a chip. All the msd will do is assist with spark. Which means make it be more efficient A chip will completely retune your ecu (fuel,spark,ect). However it can be pricey. The a9l swap is the best bang for your dollar. It's simply plug in and your good to go! As far as swapping out one or the other when it comes to the tb or maf, if you run a large tb but a stock mass air flow then the tb is useless since the maf is only allowing a small amount of air to pass. Not sure what the maf size is on the sn95 but I know they are tiny on the fox. If you only replace your maf and not the tb then your allowing a large amount of air to pass and make it to the throttle body but the motor can't use it since the tb is only so big. Causing it to back up and allow te maf to get a mis reading of some sort. So if your going to upgrade I say do both at the same time.

Also Travis, I was at the pick and pull in little rock and they have a v8 explorer on the lot with the full motor still in tact. That's the gt40p setup that you hear a lot about. If you get froggy I would say go buy there and grab the heads and intake, clean them up and run them with a nice cam. You'll have to buy headers too since the plugs will make contact with the stock manifolds you have now. But the power you'll get will be worth it. I think the whole motor is like 190 plus core. Not a 100% sure but none the less it will be WAY cheaper then buying the parts off someone. Just a thought I figured I would share

[Str33tr]

Looks like i'm not the only one on here for New Year's Eve!
Msd 6al is nothing like a chip. All the msd will do is assist with spark. Which means make it be more efficient A chip will completely retune your ecu (fuel,spark,ect). However it can be pricey. The a9l swap is the best bang for your dollar. It's simply plug in and your good to go! As far as swapping out one or the other when it comes to the tb or maf, if you run a large tb but a stock mass air flow then the tb is useless since the maf is only allowing a small amount of air to pass. Not sure what the maf size is on the sn95 but I know they are tiny on the fox. If you only replace your maf and not the tb then your allowing a large amount of air to pass and make it to the throttle body but the motor can't use it since the tb is only so big. Causing it to back up and allow te maf to get a mis reading of some sort. So if your going to upgrade I say do both at the same time.
Well, that's kinda what I was thinking. The air flows thru both to get to the motor.

Also Travis, ...
Ummm... I'm Ty. Don't think that we've actually met face-to-face. seems like we've attended same amt of events, just always different events!
I was at the pick and pull in little rock and they have a v8 explorer on the lot with the full motor still in tact. That's the gt40p setup that you hear a lot about. If you get froggy I would say go buy there and grab the heads and intake, clean them up and run them with a nice cam. You'll have to buy headers too since the plugs will make contact with the stock manifolds you have now. But the power you'll get will be worth it. I think the whole motor is like 190 plus core. Not a 100% sure but none the less it will be WAY cheaper then buying the parts off someone. Just a thought I figured I would share

wow. definitely be nice to get that head/intake combo for that cheap! Thanx for the heads-up.

Then I'd need:
converter
E cam
a9l
headers/h-pipe (like that sound).

Seems like this could work for the wimpy li'l budget I've got in mind!

[weeloGT]

Haha. I'm waiting on the wife to get ready so I'm on here too. Haha. And sorry Ty...lol. I got confused since travis was talking about heads on mikes site and I switched over to TSG. I'm sorry. Don't hate me. And yes. I have ran into you a fee times. But I don't think we talked for long.

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

The 6al box would be good to get cause it will help with throttle response and give you a little more torque. The distributor and coild would be a waste of money for your application. A 70mm throttle body and a pmas 75mm maf would be a good setup for you. The E cam works really well with the P heads, but i wohld still recommend a shaved set of original gt40's. The A9l swap isnt a quick walk in the park. You have to repin your harness and make a few other mods, but its well worth it. Research the wiring mods on corral.net and also look for your maf and throttle body, cam and msd 6al on there as well.

[weeloGT]

Oh wow. I thought the harness was the same. Glad your around mike. Lol

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

That swap has the capabilities of causing you to want to burn your car to the ground! It can get real expensive really quick also. Pro-m use to make what they call a PIH harness which plugs in between the a9l and sn harness but pro-m is now pmas and i dont know if they still make the harness but it use to be over $200 back in the day. Then you have the issue of needing something to take control of the cooling fan cause the sn computer controls that where az a a9l doesnt. I think you also need to get a bap sensor out of a fox as well. Its really a toss up between if its cheaper to track down a pih harness setup or just get a chip for your stock computer. If you decide to repin your stock harness and deal with the fan control and bap yourself than it will payoff and save you $$$$. But it is verytime consuming. A ton of sn people will rip you up for wanting to do that swap and talk up how the sn computers processor is sooo much faster than the dinosaur a9l, but the end result is that the a9l is much more simple to tune and isnt geared torwards ultra smooth driveabilty and emissions reduction like the sn computer. The fox computers use their spark parameters based on rpm and throttle position where the sn uses it based on volumetric efficiency which is why percormance mods throw the sn ecm off and driveability issues. There use to be a place called dunne rite performance that sold some of the stuff to make this swap you might try looking them up. Another thing that needs to be repinned also is the o2 harness because your automatic and the A9l is for a 5 speed car. If the o2 harness isnt repinned it eill fry the a9l ecm. Corral.net is probably gonna yield the most info on the swap. Id dosome serious research onthe matter before you make any plans for your modifications because if you spend all your budget on the upgrades and get it all tovether and the car has issues because of the upgrades then yourgonna have to dig up the funxs to do a chip with a tune or do the a9l swap. You might also talk to melo yelo here on the boards. He has a sn car with a fully built 347. Find out how he got around the sn ecm problems.

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=988655

Here is a quick harness instruction sheet for pin locations. It also talks about the fan control and bap

[weeloGT]

I guess I need to do more research to before throwing out ideas. Haha. Then again it was like 8-9 years ago when I remember seeing the write up on the two. Plus I had a friend do the swap on his 95 cobra and it took it from a 14 sec 1/4 mile car into the 13s with just that.

I guess with all that said. Maybe ported e7 heads and the 'e' cam will be his best beat for simple yet affordable power and sound. Rather then mess with the ecu to run any other combo.

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

I guess I need to do more research to before throwing out ideas. Haha. Then again it was like 8-9 years ago when I remember seeing the write up on the two. Plus I had a friend do the swap on his 95 cobra and it took it from a 14 sec 1/4 mile car into the 13s with just that.

I guess with all that said. Maybe ported e7 heads and the 'e' cam will be his best beat for simple yet affordable power and sound. Rather then mess with the ecu to run any other combo.


Lol. Its been at leasr that long since i have delt with one of those swaps. But it is true that just the swap makes the car at least .3 off the e.t.'s

[melo yelo]

The ecu is picky on these sn 95's to say the least. A baby crower or lunati I beleive the part number is 51014 with gt40 heads with a little shaving and a nice 3 or 5 angle valve job, 65 mm tb, 75 mm maf, explorer, gt40 or cobra intake matched to the heads. A matched set of shortiy headers and underdrive pullies. Put it on a dyno and have it tuned with a chip and be done. Or just find an old a trim vortech and be done.

[Str33tr]

oof.

That seems to be the problem with this car -no individual part is all that expensive, but each thing affects something else and doing the whole mess @1x is frick'n expensive!!

the a9l seems to go for $250-ish. Then I saw one guy that had the PIH harness for $300 -used! That'd be a/b half my budget just to get the computer to work w/ some simple mods.

So, looks like it's back to the e-cam, exhaust and ported stockers. Then start saving up for chip/tune.

how cheap am I going to be able to get the chip/tune for? Looks like there are a few options; SCT, TweecR...
and it seems like it's a matter of personal preference. For my little set-up that won't see many additional mods, what is the best $$ option?

[melo yelo]

Welcome to the expensive side of the hobby, get ahold of grumpy james over at bolt on performance. When I did mine many moons ago it 500 total but that was around 05 or so.

[Str33tr]

The ecu is picky on these sn 95's to say the least. A baby crower or lunati I beleive the part number is 51014 with gt40 heads with a little shaving and a nice 3 or 5 angle valve job, 65 mm tb, 75 mm maf, explorer, gt40 or cobra intake matched to the heads. A matched set of shortiy headers and underdrive pullies. Put it on a dyno and have it tuned with a chip and be done. Or just find an old a trim vortech and be done.

Thanks for jumping in on my education!
I'd heard that UDPs and shorties weren't worth anything -guess that's not the case?
When I had a fox I heard from lot's of ppl that fox exhaust manifolds are almost as good as shorties, so -unless you went long-tubes- it wasn't worth it to mess with cat-forward.
Not the same for sn95s?

re UDPs: I read an article in 5.0 or MMFF showing that there was like 3-5hp gain from UDPs and -when you deal w/ less charging and cooling- it wasn't really worth it.

I'd love to be mis-informed on both counts -these mods aren't very expensive!

[melo yelo]

Shorties and udps are good bang for the buck mods. The only bad thing about shorties is you'll wish you did long tubes if you ever step up the fight for hp. I have heard about the charging issues but never had that or the overheating. I have heard about the charging issue, the cure for that is to swap back to the stock alt pulley, or put a set of cobra underdrive pullies on (factory ford udp pieces).

[melo yelo]

A light stall and shift kit in the auto is reaaly going to wake it up, but I think you already know that.

[Str33tr]

Shorties and udps are good bang for the buck mods. The only bad thing about shorties is you'll wish you did long tubes if you ever step up the fight for hp. I have heard about the charging issues but never had that or the overheating. I have heard about the charging issue, the cure for that is to swap back to the stock alt pulley, or put a set of cobra underdrive pullies on (factory ford udp pieces).

Cool! My fox had UDPs and I never had trouble. I'd just heard this a/b SN cars. Glad to hear it's not the case from an experienced local!

[melo yelo]

Cool, hope it helps. Been doing the sn95 thing with a 94 gt since 2001.

[Str33tr]

A light stall and shift kit in the auto is reaaly going to wake it up, but I think you already know that.
I already have a hard-core shiftkit on the auto (installed by the previous owner). Most of the time I start in 2nd to keep it from barking on the 1-2 shift -even when I'm not on it hard!

Alright, so I'm trying to build a list of things that will work (read: not cause my computer to murder me) until I can get the chip/tune.
in order:
19lb tuned 75mm MAF & a 70TB (going from memory for the sizes)
explorer intake/heads (if they're still @ the U-pull it -p/m sent to Scott)
light stall (2400?)
h-pipe
shorties
UDPs

Do I need to change that order?
Do you guys think this list will make my computer angry with me? If so, which items should be left off?

[ArkansasMystic]

Unfortunately I can't help you out on the mods, but I will say that I had UDP's on my 96 Cobra. They were on there when my brother got the car back in 03, between the two of us we had the car until 09 and never once had an issue. He drove the car from here to California a couple times, not exactly taking it easy, and never had an issue with it overheating or not cooling. That said, since they were on the car when he got it (then I bought it from him), we're really not sure if they made a difference or not. I've read quite a few comments against them, but all I can say is personally I never had an issue.

[weeloGT]

The complete motor is still there this pass weekend. It's at the pick n pull in little rock off baseline road. They are located in a black mountaineer. Let me know if you have any questions. The car has coilpacks and a different t/b setup but just toss all that to the side. All you'll need is the intake (upper and lower) and heads. Then have them cleaned up and you're good to go

[abdullaGT]

Since your car already had some transmission work done, are you sure it doesn't already have an upgraded stall in it?

[Str33tr]

Since your car already had some transmission work done, are you sure it doesn't already have an upgraded stall in it?

How sure can you be a/b anything you buy on a used car, right?
You know as well as anyone...

I've talked to the kid several times since I bought it and we've gone over the mods a few times. he's never said anything a/b changing the converter.
Seemed like he was being smart and building up the platform before getting into the motor for more HP, so he did a lot of the boring work for me. Now I get to focus on the fun part.

don't suppose there's anyway to check the stall speed?

[Str33tr]

The complete motor is still there this pass weekend. It's at the pick n pull in little rock off baseline road. They are located in a black mountaineer. Let me know if you have any questions. The car has coilpacks and a different t/b setup but just toss all that to the side. All you'll need is the intake (upper and lower) and heads. Then have them cleaned up and you're good to go

Ha thanx, never got time to send that PM.

[QUARTER MILE MUSTANG]

Longtube headers for stock e7 heads are much cheaper than shorties or longtubes for "P" heads. Prettymuch the single most thing that will cause the computer to freak out on you will be the cam. The throttle body,intake, maf, exbaust shouldnt cause it to have any issues. You might also be able to get away with ported heads as well.

[Str33tr]

Longtube headers for stock e7 heads are much cheaper than shorties or longtubes for "P" heads. Prettymuch the single most thing that will cause the computer to freak out on you will be the cam. The throttle body,intake, maf, exbaust shouldnt cause it to have any issues. You might also be able to get away with ported heads as well.

So which will give me better bang/buck? The $200 Explorer heads/intake or ported stockers and some other 2nd hand intake?

[stumbaugh]

For the kind of power you are looking to make, I would stick with ported E7's. Those heads will support enough power to split that block. I would start searching Corral, Stangnet, moddedmustangs, ect ect for parts. There are lots of good deals out there.

[Blackout_03]

I would talk to Mike(QMM) or Wheelo. Both are pretty on top of there game on the pushrod motors. Get a plan of what you want out of your car.Drag car, dyno queen, street brawler..etc.. Then make a list of what parts you will need. Well matched parts that make power in the same range are really fun and pretty quick!